Theological Head Cracking with Billy "the Believer"
This post is dedicated to Erin...(heartwarming sigh)... with whom i have enjoyed many theological conversations squeezed in between classes debated through theology class. Here's to you... and Jesus!
There was a boy named Billy. He grew up in a loving home in the Newberg valley. His best friend Kristian, living just across the street, played with him every day. The two were inseperable. When Billy was ten, Kristian told him about a man who saved his life from certain death. Overjoyed that his friend was alive, Billy asked more about this man and how he had been saved. Kristian explained to Billy that this man, Jesus, sacrificed his life, even though he had done nothing wrong, so that he could go free from the entanglement of all the bad things he had done. Billy knew that he had done some terrible things, some things that his parents didn't even know about. He wished so much for someone to do the same to him so he could be free from it all like Kristian. To his joy, Kristian told him that he also could be saved from death. That afternoon, Billy confessed his sins to the Lord and believed that Jesus died and rose again. He believed whole heartedly, was baptized, and walked with God.
Five years later, when the boys started highschool, the two went their own way. Billy fell under the pressures of his friends to reject what he had believed and become his own god. He took on the practices of witch craft, Buddism, Hindu, and Islam. That year Billy's name was in the obituary. Many wondered where he would go, to die in his sin, or to escape death and live in Paradise?
The question arises: Where will Billy "the Believer" be in eternity? He was a steadfast believer at ten, but at fifteen and up until his death, he rejected God. This may involve your view of predestination, free will, and eternal security. I don't want your opinion, I'm sorry, but it's useless- I want Biblical interpretations. You must back up all your beliefs with Scripture. Seek to answer: what does the Bible say on this matter?
There was a boy named Billy. He grew up in a loving home in the Newberg valley. His best friend Kristian, living just across the street, played with him every day. The two were inseperable. When Billy was ten, Kristian told him about a man who saved his life from certain death. Overjoyed that his friend was alive, Billy asked more about this man and how he had been saved. Kristian explained to Billy that this man, Jesus, sacrificed his life, even though he had done nothing wrong, so that he could go free from the entanglement of all the bad things he had done. Billy knew that he had done some terrible things, some things that his parents didn't even know about. He wished so much for someone to do the same to him so he could be free from it all like Kristian. To his joy, Kristian told him that he also could be saved from death. That afternoon, Billy confessed his sins to the Lord and believed that Jesus died and rose again. He believed whole heartedly, was baptized, and walked with God.
Five years later, when the boys started highschool, the two went their own way. Billy fell under the pressures of his friends to reject what he had believed and become his own god. He took on the practices of witch craft, Buddism, Hindu, and Islam. That year Billy's name was in the obituary. Many wondered where he would go, to die in his sin, or to escape death and live in Paradise?
The question arises: Where will Billy "the Believer" be in eternity? He was a steadfast believer at ten, but at fifteen and up until his death, he rejected God. This may involve your view of predestination, free will, and eternal security. I don't want your opinion, I'm sorry, but it's useless- I want Biblical interpretations. You must back up all your beliefs with Scripture. Seek to answer: what does the Bible say on this matter?
posted by el Zinga at
10:47 AM
22 Comments:
I know not how "steadfast" he was if he rejected God in the end.
now if his first name had been knox or jemima, we never would have had this problem...
I think George has a good point. (By the way, hello George. What are you doing here?) If little Billy left the faith, then it seems unlikely that he was ever a true Christian.
I would like to point out that it is impossible to state any case without the influence of one's opinion. We interpret everything in light of our worldview (even Bible verses). Many important points of Christian doctrine are not stated, underlined, and highlighted for our convenience. We have been given mental reasoning and opinions so that we can study and discover truth in Scripture. All that to say, I will use some Scripture references in the following, but much of what I say will be based on basic logic and plain reasoning.
Your answer to the question of "Will Little Billy Go To Heaven?" ultimately depends on your beliefs concerning the nature of the Covenant and God's sovereingty.
"Many are called but few are chosen." Matt. 22:14
Many are in the Covenant, but not in the Church.
"Moreover brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and awere all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."
1 Cor. 10:1-5
Every last one of those Israelites was as much a Christian as Billy. If anything, they were more so. They literally walked with God, under God's shadow and under God's light. They had wholeheartedly sung praises to the Lord. They had witnessed the original Passover, they had experienced the dividing of the sea (here a symbol of baptism), they had undergone the giving of the law - and yet, that ENTIRE GENERATION was destroyed. They knew the truth, but exchanged it for a lie.
There is nothing in the Scriptures that should indicate that we deserve anything from God, and this, I believe, is where we are commonly tripped up. In an age of humanism we have learned to assume the inherent goodness of human beings, that somehow, deep down inside, WAAAYY deep down, we are basically, fundamentally good. THIS IS NOT SO. God owes us NOTHING.
"And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and had been made like unto Gomorrah." Rom. 9:29
A human being is incapable of good works of his own accord. Hence good works are called "The Fruit of the Spirit". They are the result of the Spirit working within a man. We do not choose God, for it is not within us. We are by nature rebels. If it really was up to Billy to choose God, then it would be entirely possible for Billy to unchoose God. But the counsels of the Lord are firm forever. Once a King or Queen in Narnia, always a King or Queen in Narnia. Once God has made us one of His flock, then He will not allow us to stray far from the fold.
Rom 8:38,39 "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
But...
"Thou wilt say then to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will? Nay, but O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why have you made me thus? Does the potter not have power over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Rom. 9:19-21
Many are called, but few are chosen, and we have no right to complain about the results. God chose between Jacob and Esau, before either of them had done anything at all. Solely on basis of His good plan, God determined that the older would serve the younger. Neither one of them had any choice in the matter.
How does this all relate to the Dilemma of Little Billy?
I am trying to re-adjust our perspective on choice and salvation. Man's choice is irrelevant. God's choice is everything.
Now for the Covenant. God has established His covenant with His People. Those that are in the Church are in the Covenant. But not all those that are in the Covenant are in the Church.
Rom. 9:6 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." The distinction here is between the invisible Church and the visible church; the eternal and the temporary. Billy may have been, to all appearances, a steadfast believer at age 10. That is good. Even the demons believe, and tremble. It sounds to me that Billy is a Covenant Breaker. God had made His Covenant with Billy, just as with Israel of old. And, just as Israel had, Billy turned away from God. He picked up a religion of Islamic-Witchcraft-Hinduistic-Buddhism. Don't even ask me where he picked up something like that. Probably from the Beatles.
Many are called, but few are Chosen. Billy was not chosen, and therefore he was pruned from the vine and piled with the unfruitful branches, awaiting destruction.
Wow. You tell 'em, Professor.
Get out of here Milkman. We've told you before that you are only allowed to post in verse and rhyme.
No, that's only in The Cave. Elsewhere I am free to post as I wish. Free from weird and arbitrary stipulations. I haven't figured out that one yet? Why is it that the rest of you guys are allowed to talk normally?
no reason. its just a rule. we have to have rules. though i think you may be right. our rules only apply to our activity within our home blog.
Well, Lynzy, this does touch somewhat on our, shall we say, discussion last Friday. Only you would give him the name Billy.
"Whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." -John 3:18
There we are. Billy turned his back on the faith of his childhood and instead accepted Buddhism, Hinduism, occult, AND Islam. If we get to heaven only to find that Billy is there before us what point is there in persevering in the faith? What does it matter whether we become hindubuddhistmuslim witches or not?
What security do we have in our own faith knowing that whether or not we are saved depends on our own arbitrary human choice? Especially since we can apparently change our minds repeatedly and save and un-save ourselves as often as we like, while the sovereign God sits up in heaven wringing his hands and hoping that we'll choose right in the end. It is much more comforting to think that the supreme "God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in transgressions." Nothing can ever separate us from the love of Christ.
How did Billy die? Just wondering.
Lynzy, before i can respond i need to know your position. because if you believe that billy would still go to heaven after his life of sin without repentence, then you i'm afraid you might be a believer of the barcode method of salvation. What is your stance?
actually nevermind lynzy i just talked to erin and decided this isn't a debat I want to be involved with.
I thought about this predestination/free will thing alot, and wrestled with it for a while after we read Institutes, and I've come to a point of resolution on it. But although I have this certain opinion, I'm hesitant to talk about it because any conclusion you come to isn't worth the debate. It's enough for me to know that I am saved. Hallelujah!
Ya, after talking to erin about the actual situation i don't think your little story quite portrays the debate very well.
My utmost appologies for any misconstruments of the original "debate," although if i am wrong on the standings, i think this is still somewhat on topic.
but, deathbywhatever, must i give my reasoning for you to give yours? in the post i tried to stay as unbiast so as not to sway anyones response. let me know if anything needs to be cleared up.
about the "opinion" thing. it's just that i wanted "biblical based opinions" not "this is what i want to believe because it fits with my lifestyle."
we must address the fact that what sets us apart from the beasts is our gift of choice (freewill) and reason. Erin, it seems as though you would consider one to be saved without "confessing with their mouth" because God has preappointed his "elect" if you will, so it no longer matters what we do with our lives (whether we choose to fall down and worship God or not). i would like to understand you more fully- are you saying we have no freewill and can not choose to follow christ (reducing us to machines)? so no matter what we do, God trumps all and wins? i'm just having misunderstandings with where our freewill comes in- if you believe we can make choices.
If God has elected a person to everlasting life, then they will "confess Him with their mouth". Where the work of the Spirit is, the Fruit of the Spirit will be also. The good works with which a Christian confesses their Lord are called the Fruit of the Spirit for the simple reason that they are a result of the work of the Spirit, not just our independent decisions.
I didn't say anythibng of the sort. I just asked how did he die.
Pardon me? BREAD?! Ha! The word sounds similar to the Greek, but Artos in this case actually means "bear", being the celtic word from which is derived "arthur".
The only reason that this question is so much trouble is that our modern Christianity has this weird idea of free will ingrained into its very consciousness. I'm not saying that free will is Biblical, but I am suggesting rather vehemently that our perception of it is very very unbiblical. The chief argument against predestination these days is something to the effect of "But...what about free will?" thereby summing up and concluding the entire substance of their objections. Our wills are "free" in the sense that we can do whatever we want. However, it happens that all we really want to do is sin. So, in effect, our wills are NOT free. We are either in bondage to sin, or in bondage to God. One cannot serve two masters and images of servitude and slavery are used both for a life in Christ and a life in sin. We have so taken for granted a certain (I would say, unbiblical) doctrine of free will, that we have ceased to address the issue on basis on Scripture passages. That's all for now.
Slight mistake on that last post: the phrase should read "I'm not saying that free will is unbiblical...". Sorry.
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